British Expat Forum

My friend was chatting to her mom in Coventry this morning. Her Mom is in her 70s and she says that there are so many Kosovars in England begging on the streets, that she and her husband are scared to go downtown.

Is it really that bad?

I have heard this story before. Are all the beggers really Kosovars? And if so, how did they get to England? Did they get there illegally and if so, why doesn't someone send them back where they came from?

There are lots of refugees in UK, Liz, I was told the number, but I can't remember off hand. They are there legally, accepted by the government, and although it would now be safe to send them back, it seems that they will be staying. What is causing a lot of contention, is the fact that they are receiving a lot more hand-outs, than the disadvantaged locals are.

We had about four plane loads here in Sydney, when the trouble was on. Difference being, that as soon as it was safe for them to return, they were flown back home again. Australia had no intention of them staying, and IMHO this is what should have happened in UK too.

SSue 8)

I totally agree Sue. I would not walk around on my own at night in the UK for anything - I feel so vulnerable all the time and even have the car door locked when driving on my own.
At one time we never encountered beggars on the streets of Cardiff where I live but now certain areas I would not go to at all.
But maybe that is not all down to refugees but the general state of play in the Country. The Government has a lot to answer for.

Damned cheeky these people, leaving their countries and getting into another in order to try and make a better life for themselves instead of sorting themselves out at home. Oh wait.

I think that perhaps not only is a general state of play re government I also think that often the supposed privileged treatment is blown out of proportion by the media. I'm sure there are cases - we all know of people who manage to work the system, but most can't. I once lived in a house that had two Bosnian refugees in it. Over the years we've kept in touch with one. Scarcely privileged treatment for her, and she gave up what she was getting in order to go to Uni (students being considerably undefunded compared to those that prefer to be on handouts - but start off some about lazy skiving students and grants) and she is now working in London and it is only in the last few years she has been allowed to travel and see her family back home.

That doesn't help if you are afraid to go out at night because of the rising possibility of crime in your area, but as Audrey said, I think it is a social problem rather than being a direct problem of immigration.

It was my impression that it isn't a case of "immigration " but more of "illegal immigration" and while obviously everybody in the US and Canada are immigrants which is a good thing - I don't believe the illegal immigrants are a good thing. I thought it usually meant that they didn't want to be bothered to wait and get to a country through the proper channels.

And I never heard talk of Bosnians being a trouble - it was always Kosovars although I really don't know what the difference might be - maybe the Bosnians get there legally and the Kosovars don't.

I heard that the Kosovars were beggars because they got there illegally and therefore could not work and could not get social assistance. But maybe it was all just gossip.

I think most people who are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration find it kind of difficult to judge an illegal from a legal immigrant by looking at them. I never realised how hard it was for non-whites in the UK until I started travelling with my wife (Indian).

In the UK now it seems the words 'illegal' and 'immigrant' are irrevocably linked and anyone with a touch of melanin and the misfortune to be out of work are branded as such. Considering our history of traipsing all over the world and busily draining other countries of their resources, it's a little ironic that when the biters start to get bit we introduce passports and immigration controls to protect 'our' stuff, and complain about people crossing borders with impunity.

Given our cross cultural marriage I looked into our shared history. Now walking around Edinburgh it is very evident to me that much of it was built with Indian money, for example. Our history of intrepid entrepreneurs suffering hardships in the face of difficult and unfriendly natives after hard struggled voyages over stormy seas is the stuff of heroes. Make them brown, or off white at least, and suddenly for the media they are essentially spongers and wasters after our precious things.

Now, I'm not suggesting that it is not a problem. But it is a problem that pretty much we have caused for ourselves, but generally we'd rather blame the victim. Given the conditions and hardships often suffered by illegals, we should consider the sobering fact that it is still worth the risks for them to get where they were going. We should certainly try to overcome the difficulties and problems caused, but some sympathy for those who are actually suffering the most is more appropriate than the nonsense spoken by the media.

Draining other countries of their resources? What did we take from Kosovo then?

My experience of Brits abroad is the transfer knowledge and skills to indiginous people as well as creating jobs and wealth. It is not to illegally enter a country, collect the benefits and intimidate people.

I accept there are some genuine cases but if the UK doesn't start to repatriate the illegals there are big problems ahead.

Maybe that's more the attitude today, but it hasn't always been so. The British Raj are a prime example of how we plundered another country, collected the benefits, and intimidated people.

Mind you, a lot of Indians still think that things were better under British rule considering the corruption going on now.

Offhand a few quotes from the San Franciso Bay Guardian


'As a result of NATO's success in the military conflicts of Bosnia and Kosovo, its member nations have been provided the political and economic opportunities to partake in the exploitation of the significant mineral resources in the Balkans.'

'Proposed pipeline routes will divert oil and gas from the oil-rich Caspian sea to either Mediterranean or east European terminals for export to the Western nations, thus avoiding competing interests of either Russia or Iran. '

'U.S. and NATO interests continued to systematically exploit Balkan resources in 2000, '


Generally wars aren't fought for moral reasons. A lot of investment goes into them and return is expected. We don't invest in wars where there are little or no resources to be had.

I think nooranismith makes some very good points.
I don't see anything wrong with people moving to try to make better lives for themselves (haven't we all done that?), sometimes where they move to isn't the promised land they thought it was even though it's better than what they left. If they have to resort to begging so be it, I don't hold with aggresive panhandling/begging though, and intimidation of the elderly is an absolute no-no!
Give them two or three generations and they will be indistinguishable from the rest of the population; enculturisation can be a very powerful tool. Kay is also right in that UK has benefitted from years of "plundering" other countries. Perhaps UK did leave better political structures behind but they still took the wealth and perhaps now it's time to pay some of it back. I think a figure bandied about is that 20 percent of the worlds population own 80 percent of the wealth, perhaps it is time to share it a bit more equitably.
Graeme

I'm all for people choosing where they would like to live, and how, as long as they work for it, and don't just expect to land on that countries doorstep, and think it should provide them with all their home comforts, at the expense of an already overstretched government, and taxpayer.

From different reports I've heard, read about, and seen on the news, these are the cases that have caused all the hoo haa, and rightly so. If the legal refugees are given handouts, over and above, what a disadvantaged brit, is given, and then they are also holding out the begging bowl, and accumulating more money, there's no wonder it's caused a stink.

I can't see the sense in bringing people here, (Australia) just to dump them, on the streets, when they can't integrate, because they can't speak a word of english, and most of them don't want to be here in the first place. I am sure that Australia did the right thing by helping these people in their time of need, and when the danger was over, returning them to their homeland, and normal lives.

SSue 8)

I don't disagree with you SSue. For example, although Scotland was relatively welcoming to the refugees, printing pages and articles in their newspapers in the various refugee languages, etc., the parties weren't dispersed across various areas but set down in a block in some of the most impoverished areas of Glasgow. The result of this is bound to be local resentment and envy - because I really doubt it would even be legal to place them in the WORST of accomodation available in Glasgow. Not only that, and apologies to my Glaswegian Brethren, such areas aren't known at the best of times to be filled with pious law abiding citizens. The refugees are immediately put into a position where they had to fight to survive and in a strange country. To my knowledge several didn't survive, whereas (and I know I may be wrong) there were no murders of locals by refugees. Th eimpression thus given to people is that Scotland is a place full of murderers, drunks and toughs where you have to keep your wits to live and grab what you can before it is taken from you.

And again, I don't disagree with you, SSue, but it is hardly a criteria that has been applied so strongly to us from the more privileged countries. Our Free Market in our Free World is strongly and tightly controlled by those of us with the wealth that we have taken from the rest - more often with a gun rather than a begging bowl.

Just read a quite startling passage in McCarthy's Bar by Pete McCarthy, where he's talking about some of the more exotic (English) denizens of SW Ireland:



Whether or not that's what they're actually doing, that's what the locals perceive them as doing.

As Ron says, the words "illegal" and "immigrant" are inextricably linked in many people's minds. It's perhaps worth noting that the TUC has absolutely nothing against legal immigrants - in the recent flurry of panic over the impact of ten new EU member states on the UK job markets, the TUC was arguing that the UK shouldn't join the rest of the existing EU member states (apart from Ireland) who are taking up the option to bar jobseekers for up to seven years. And legal immigrants actually contribute a disproportionately high amount to the UK's GDP.

NIce point Dave

It had actually just occurred to me I could have used the example of the floods of English economic migrants deciding a parking space was too expensive in London and buying up an estate in Scotland and displacing the locals. You beat me to it with a better analogy.

No-one wants to be threatened in their homes and security, but the fundamental problem in all these examples is the inequity in the world. As inheritors of first world wealth we, in general, are the lucky ones. The refugees, whether migrants due to oppresion, warfare, or even economics are, in general, the unlucky ones. Our society casts aspersions widespread across those unwashed masses instead of focussing on the specific problems and crimes caused by the few and trying to solve them.

BTW it occurs to me I seem like a hippy. Let me say I don't give money to beggars wherever they are from. I do give change to people who clean my windscreen for me, so I am in total agreement with working for your keep. On the other hand, I'm pretty damn sure that most of the people living in a Mumbai shanty town are working a damn sight harder day to day for a hell of a lot less than I get get for doing a hell of a lot less, but I'm welcomed into more places than they are.

Addendum:

Quote from 'Scottish Snippets'

'UK Capital for Refugees
Glasgow has twice as many asylum seekers per head of population than London
and has more refugees than in Wales, Northern Ireland and the east and
south-east of England combined, according to government statistics. There
are around 5,565 refugees living in free accommodation in Glasgow, often in
the poorer parts of the city. The City of Glasgow Council is the only one
in Scotland participating in the UK government's dispersal scheme which was
aimed at moving asylum seekers from the south of England where many of them
had entered the country. The Council is proud of the fact that Glasgow has
welcomed asylum seekers for over 30 years, long before the current
dispersal programme.'


The occasional murder notwithstanding, despite having the highest concentration of refugees you don't see the same hatred and vitriol in the local papers.