British Expat Forum

[This topic started out on another thread but became political/religious so I moved it here. Sorry about the missing bits but it was a difficult thread to split as so many postings both replied to the original subject and then went on to talk about the other issues arising. I hope you can manage to get the gist of it and enjoy any subsequent discussions on the issues. Kay]

[Basically, the starting point is about people being obnoxious to others who don't agree with their views. It then goes on to the more sensitive areas of religion and people's beliefs.]

<<Poor Trevor.>>

It cheered me up no end. The more obnoxious one later confided that it was only my mentality he was comparing to Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. It wasn't meant personally. Happily, at the end of that particular posting, he began talking about me and my fellow ape dictators.

I thanked him for his further observations on the subject and signed off with Stalin-Mao-Pol Pot. If somebody wishes to give a public display of demolishing their own argumentation and credibility, they'd do well to follow his lead.

The one who'd thrown in the Hitler stuff, (he's probably batty rather than obnoxious), then started a new thread: "Why are evolutionists so hostile to creationists here, on this very messageboard?" This enabled me to rub his nose in the comparisons with Hitler crap, and point out I've no hostility to creationists. Rather, I was becoming hostile to him. It had nothing to do with his faith and was entirely personal, as far as I was concerned.

Brilliant.

You're on a hiding to nothing with a fair proportion of that group. Particularly if they are evangelically inclined.

I know a devout couple who are very good friends, but their style of Christianity is very relaxed and intimate, and they make no attempt to convert others to their beliefs. If I felt the need for a religion, theirs would be the model I'd follow - God as friend and mentor, always approachable.

However, I was in my early teens when I decided that Man creates God (or Gods) in his own image, or in the image of what he'd like to be - one reason why most modern religions promote less barbaric social behaviour than the early ones did. I'm not likely to change now.

One of the many delights of reading Banksie's 'Raw Spirit' is his vitriolic descriptions of Dubya and the system that brought him to power. I don't share his socialist politics, but I sympathise with much of his political comment.

<<You're on a hiding to nothing with a fair proportion of that group.>>

I don't generally try to talk sense with them, because it's a usually a waste of time. They typically make assertions from positions of profound ignorance. If somebody tells you about the contents of the fossil record, when they actually don't have the foggiest idea what it contains, this is intellectual dishonesty (assuming it's not derangement). If they choose to believe untruths and leave it at that, then that's their right. However, I don't that them go unchallenged if they give public demonstrations.

Should somebody amuse themselves in the privacy of their own home, by standing in front of a mirror dressed only in a dirty raincoat, and open and close it with merry abandon, then fine. If they act like that in a public place, then let's hope they get quickly arrested.

Spreading untruths in public places is also anti-social behaviour. The practice is condemned in The Bible. Furthermore, there's an audience which often knows less than I do, and some may be vulnerable to the display of falsehoods.

Curious how people settle on plateaux at all levels. Maybe their religious beliefs are a side issue - otherwise why did they accept any kind of fossil record at all? Are they just half-educated bigots who happen to have got religion, in the same way as they got science?

Many people seem to switch off after they reach their level, and cling desperately to the first world model (scientific and/or religious) that gave them any confidence, strenuously denying that any other can exist, and not even wanting to develop their chosen model to cater for things that don't quite seem to fit.

PS. This is beginning to look like a Religion/Politics discussion. I'll stop here, unless anyone wants to continue it on the appropriate board.

Sheesh...I'm almost afraid to say I am a Christian...one of those Bible believing ones at that. Now don't start sharing your facts with me, I have beliefs. As someone once said 'a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.' So don't confuse me with facts.

<<PS. This is beginning to look like a Religion/Politics discussion. I'll stop here, unless anyone wants to continue it on the appropriate board.>>

I think I'll join you in that, Ruggie, although I doubt it's either religion or politics. I'm sure the reasons are various.

<<Sheesh...I'm almost afraid to say I am a Christian...one of those Bible believing ones at that.>>

If God is with you, Jester, don't be afraid. (I appreciate you're writing somewhat tongue in cheek, and that makes holding a pen difficult.) I have a friend who's a vicar. He told me he believes The Bible is true in every detail. He also believes the apparent age of the Earth is correct, the fossil record, evolution and so on. These must also be true because they were made by the author of a certain book, and that author doesn't write fibs. To his mind, there appear to be some contradictions. However, he's a vicar. It's not his job to explain those, and his mind is merely a human one.

He leaves explanations up to his boss, and I don't mean the bishop.

I'll split the thread and shift the political/religious stuff to the correct board.

And since you've raised the subject, I'm an atheist. Each to their own. I don't tell people what they should believe and I don't appreciate them trying to convert me either. That said, I'm always interested in a reasonable discussion, but not when it requires me to believe in something for the sole reason that someone else believes in it.

I like Ruggie's idea of Man creating God(s) in the image of what s/he wants to be himself. I can relate to that.

Make of this what you will .Link here

Scary stuff. Especially Grandpa's eyepatch.



I'm with Kay on this. I'm happy for people to believe in whatever they choose, but if they're going to debate with me about their religion, I'll need arguments that rely on something other than the writings they deem to be holy if I'm to be convinced.

One of the other strips in the series accuses evolutionists of "circular reasoning". Breathtaking!

I used to have respect for people of faith until I moved here to the deep south bible belt .

After a few years of things such as schools refusing to teach evolution to my stepson, him coming home upset at the age of 12 because all his pals were gathered together telling him he's gonna go to hell because he hasn't been "saved" and daily conversations with scripture quoting zealots who put forth quotes from the bible as evidence that the thing to do with Iraq is to nuke it out of existence - I'm convinced they are not at all harmless.

I have friends back in England that are deeply religious, but are completely rational, good people.

Here, you are either "in the club" or very much out of it (I guess I'm out then). We can't even have a resident's association meeting without prayer and inspirational scripture readings before hand (I gave up waiting for the meeting to start and went home).

The whole country seems to be getting worse in this direction. IMO, it is an extremely worrying trait for a powerful nation to be spiralling towards the 15th century in this way.

Just my opinion, but after being amongst the fundamentalists for a while, give me the agnostics or even atheists any day.

Alan.

"He who throws mud loses a lot of ground."

Sorry, I don't know who originally said that. It seemed relevant to some of the postings in this thread, so I thought I'd post it.